Human Design Teachers & Guides, John Cole & Amy Lee
How well do you know your Self? Each step on the spiritual path reveals deeper insight - and tools like Human Design offer powerful guidance for self-discovery, healing and alignment as we seek greater truth and purpose.
This week’s guests, Human Design Analysts & Teachers, Amy Lee and John Cole, share the evolution of their work, including how they integrate astrology and Human Design in a grounded, embodied way. They discuss the practical and mystical sides of the system - how it can illuminate our energetic blueprint, guide our decision-making, and even help us release conditioning that no longer serves us.
Highlights:
💫 New to Human Design? Amy covers the basics in episode 10 of our 1st season
🧬 How can Human Design help us understand who we truly are beneath the conditioning of the world?
🌌 How do astrology and Human Design work together to offer a more complete view of our soul’s blueprint?
💡 Why is learning to follow your strategy and authority the single most important step in Human Design?
🔄 Deconditioning: what does it really mean to release who you thought you were to become who you are?
🧘♀️ How can Human Design be a tool for surrender, acceptance and living with greater peace in your body and life?
👫 The impact of Human Design on relationships - how does understanding your type and your partner’s type create more harmony and clarity?
🌀 What role do transits play in Human Design, and how can they affect the way you experience your chart over time?
💬 Amy and John reflect on why are more people being called to this system now.
🧭 Why understanding your authority is like having your own internal compass - and how it frees you from indecision and external pressure.
🌱 How does Human Design invite us into a lifelong experiment, rather than a quick-fix identity label?
Learn more from Amy & John about Human Design (sessions, classes, articles, podcast & more!) at HumanDesignCollective.com.
AMY LEE is a Professional Analyst and Living Design Guide, Rave ABCs Teacher, and Rave Cartography Teacher who has completed training with Human Design America and the International Human Design School certified to provide Foundation Readings, the Living Your Design Program, and analysis of the Incarnation Cross, Cycles (Solar Return, Saturn Return, Uranus Opposition & Chiron Return), Partnership and Family Systems (Penta). Introduced to Human Design in 2009, she has been deeply immersed in living according to her design and studying the system. Get a Human Design session with Amy at HoloHumanDesign.com
JOHN COLE is a John is an IHDS Certified Analyst, Guide, and Teacher with over three decades of astrological study and deep experimentation with the Human Design System. He meets each person as the unique individual that they are, recognizing that they are the authority in their own life. He aims to share this system practically and straightforwardly, initiating fellow explorers into a deeper relationship with their true-self and inner authority. Get a Human Design session with John at MetamorphicSystems.com.
TIANNA ROSER is an Usui Reiki Master Teacher, Soul Plan Practitioner & Certified Clinical Hypnotist specializing in Past Life Regression, Life Between Lives Regression & QHHT. https://www.awakeningtransformation.com. She helps Lightworkers step into their Soul Destiny through her spiritual mentorship program, Unlock Your Soul Destiny. 💖 Her book “Awakening Transformation: A Beginner’s Guide to Becoming Your Higher Self” is filled with practices to lighten your spiritual journey & accelerate growth: https://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Transformation-Beginners-Becoming-Higher/dp/1737705303
NICOLE PARISH is a a gifted International Psychic and Medium. She offers both in-person & zoom readings, connecting clients with their spirit guides, helpers, and departed loved ones, as well as entity & attachment releasing and home clearings. Check out her Intuitive Development, group readings & other events. https://www.nicoleparish.com/
If you’re enjoying listening to Beyond the Illusion Podcast, please leave a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. This helps other people to find us. 💟
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Join me in a 10 week Spiritual Mentorship, where we will do a soul purpose deep dive using tools & processes to establish a confident connection to Spirit, uncover your unique gifts & create a practical plan for you to live your Soul Destiny.
TRANSCRIPT
Tianna: [00:00:00] Welcome, welcome. So some of you guys that have been
listening for a while might remember Amy as one of the guests that we had in
our very first season on Beyond the Illusion. And when I was looking back I
was like, oh my gosh, that was five and a half years ago. I think there's a lot of
us maybe that when you're thinking about time, you think of pre covid, post
Covid, something like this and how there was this weird kind of time warp thing
that happened or black hole of time
Anyway, it's interesting because when we first had Amy on, I was hearing
about human design from a lot of different people that I know and it was really,
really new to me and so now it's been five and a half years of me exploring. Not
deep dive, trying to understand human design, which still feels sort of foreign
and difficult for me.
And so I'm [00:01:00] hoping you guys will try to help make it simple for me.
But really just the whole strategy and authority piece has been very helpful for
me. , I think they say it takes like seven years to decondition or however they
say that. And so I'm not there yet and I'm sure it's not an exact thing, but it is
really cool to have you back, Amy.
After I've, played with this for some time. I'm also really excited to have John
here and of course we have our wonderful, co-host Nicole Parish here as well.
John, I'm so excited that you are knowledgeable in astrology and human design,
and I'm curious to hear about where they overlap and where they separate.
But maybe first we can just, start with you guys telling a little bit about your
journeys with human design. Hmm. Sure. Thank
Amy: you. Thanks for having me back. I'm really glad to be back here, with you
and to meet you, Nicole, and to have John here with me this time. For me
personally, it's been a long journey with human design.
It's been about 15 years for me now, [00:02:00] and the last seven or so I would
say has been really, colored by my partnership with John and the work that we
do together. So I would say for myself, in the first probably seven years that I
was exploring it, a lot of it was just about my own personal life. The daughter
that I was raising, the people that were close to me.And I spent a long time just observing what the information had to say and.
How I was seeing that play out. And like you said, Tianna, it's a lot of
information. So I found that it took me a really long time to just digest piece by
piece. And I also found in my process that there were certain aspects of it that
would sort of come up to the surface at just the right time.
But it wasn't like it was doable for me to just take the whole system in all at
once and try to figure it all out. It just didn't work that way for me. And then in
the last seven years, John and I have been able to develop our [00:03:00] own
version of the work and to develop our own, teaching and courses and practices.
And it continues to be something that's growing and evolving for both of us all
the time. But it's been really fruitful to have a partner in it and to be able to.
Also see how it merges with some of the other things that we've studied,
including astrology and some other forms of work as well. So it's an exciting
time, I think, to still be working with it and to be part of its evolution too.
Tianna: John, do you wanna share your journey?
John: Yeah. So my journey's a little bit different than Amy's I came into human
design from astrology, as you had mentioned before. I've been studying
astrology for a couple decades, since my early twenties and, had gone kind of in
and out of various astrological systems.
And it was back in around 2015, , human design was kind of dropped into my
lap, , by a fellow astrologer who had looked up my chart and their chart and just
kind of said, Hey, check this out. And kind of threw it over to [00:04:00] me. ,
my first impression of human design was pretty interesting in retrospect because
.
When I first saw the chart and the wheel, it was just too much. I was like, this is
a lot. You've got signs, we've got the I-ching, hexagrams, we've got these
different chakra centers. It's all this kind of synthesis. And I remember thinking
like, I don't see how this can work. This is like, some madman has assembled
this and put this together.
And, and I was a little bit reluctant to go much further, but it was reading about,
, my energetic or auric type as a projector that I think kind of hooked me. 'cause
I started reading about what that meant , to be a projector and it was a bit of a
missing link of, , the things I had studied before astrology, different spiritual
systems.It kind of reframed a lot of my early life experiences, and made sense in a
certain way that encouraged me to go deeper. And so I just dove full on at that
point and I was like, well, might as well get a reading, take a course, kind of see
more about what this system's about.
And then that kicked off a whole process. It's been about 10 years now. And, ,
[00:05:00] I didn't expect that I would be working with human design at the
time. over some time I realized like, this is pretty interesting. And I started
integrating it into my astrological practice, but then it kind of flipped at a certain
point and I started doing mostly human design and then integrating astrology.
And so I'm kind of working with both now. But, , yeah, it's been an interesting
journey and, , it's been about 10 years.
Tianna: Yeah. It's interesting because it seems like, and it's hard to have an
objective perspective, but it seems like human design , it's gotten really popular.
It's like , the new it girl, whatever, the buzzword and I was wondering, , is that
what you're seeing too? And then also if there's a lot of, , astrologers that are
switching over to human design
John: I think so. I mean, human design is an astrological system in that it's
based on the positions of the planet's time, date, and place of birth. And there
are some overlapping, , elements , in both systems, but then I think it's showing
us a different view of things than the traditional astrology chart.
It's like looking through two different lenses or frameworks. , and we can get
[00:06:00] into that a little bit more, but I have seen quite, a growing interest in
human design over this 10 year period that I've known about it. In the beginning
there weren't a lot of, , classes, there weren't a lot of people talking about it.
It was harder to find information. And then it was a bit like a tidal wave was
coming in. And Amy and I were kind of positioned to ride this wave for a while.
Since then, it's really exploded and it's everywhere. I think people are hearing
about it, , all through obviously social media, but a lot of spiritual circles and
communities.
It's just making the rounds and so it seems like it's gotten to a point where it's
really out there. NowAmy: I just wanted to add, I think also with astrology, astrology can get very
complicated very quickly. , from what I've seen, and I think human design,
obviously, if you wanna fully understand it, can also be quite complex.
But I think the way that human design is presented in terms of those essential
pieces, just type strategy, authority, profile, [00:07:00] those are some really
quick, key points that people can relate to very fast. And even for people to start
to just understand the body graph, just the nine centers and the channels that
connect them.
I think in some ways, for some people that's easier to pick up on than , how
complex astrology can be in understanding the aspects , and all the different
things that happen through the astrological chart. So maybe that's been part of
what's also made it, uh, a fast pickup for people in the last few years.
Once the information really got out.
Nicole: I know , when John, you were saying that this wave is coming , or we're
in it, of people hearing more and more about human design. I had heard about it,
but then I got even more into it when I took one of Tianna and Sharon Hudson's
groups, which was Cosmic Mastermind.
And so it's for business people who are wanting to develop more of their
business in the spiritual perspective. And Tianna brings astrology and Sharon
brings [00:08:00] human design. So in one of our meetups, I might say, yeah, I
have a difficult time being a visionary. If someone gives me a vision, I'm a
worker, I can get it done.
And then Sharon's like, oh yeah, because that makes sense. You're a, I don't
know, generating manifesto or something like that. And then Tianna's like, oh
yeah, because this is happening. in the stars. And it really helped me feel better
about the challenges that I had of like, yeah, I'm not a visionary.
I can do it some, but that's not my skillset. And it was really fun in Cosmic
Mastermind to be able to hear, share and talk about human design and the
astrological perspective and how people can feel supported in it. And so that's
just one of the ways that it's being used in different groups.
It's not a group about human design, but it's a group that is utilizing it and to
support the people. ,Tianna: That's beautiful. . , just to be clear, . Which I think you're saying
Sharon's not teaching about human design.
And , I'm definitely not teaching about astrology. [00:09:00] But we're
constantly making references from the knowledge base that we have, which is
not at a teacher level or anything at all. But yeah, I think these different
archetypes, which is the way that I look at any of these types of systems as
there's different archetypes.
They start to become a framework that you perceive and experience life and
other people and behaviors and energies through, that just starts to feel very
natural. And I guess that's the thing that astrology felt easier for me is maybe
because , there's a lot of, archetypes that we're familiar with through myths , and
different, .
Things that we've read over the years, , that it's easier for me to grasp the
archetype of the Aries Ram or something than the, I don't know, gate 24. I'm
just throwing that on there 'cause it's like, oh, that's just a number and what is
that? , I guess , to me it seems like, oh, there's so many more archetypes to have
to learn in human design.
This, whatever, [00:10:00] 64 in the Hexagram. Just because I haven't learned
them through different means, growing up the way that maybe some of these
other archetypes that are in astrology, , they're all woven into things in our life
that made it a little bit easier. But I really like Amy the way that you just.
Describe that because when you did say oh, I think that human design can be
easier on this level, and you listed those things, I was like, oh yeah, I feel like I
do have a good grasp of those things that you just said. And where I get
confused or where I feel like, ah, I'm never gonna understand this unless I take a
course.
And I don't know that I wanna dive that deep. Because with astrology I've been
able to sort of, over the years, through listening , to podcasts and other people
speak like our good friend Shannon. You start to pick up pieces and it starts to
build in there. But I kind of feel with human design, it's like, oh, you can have
this certain beginner's grasp and then everything else is like a really deep dive.
Which may or may not be [00:11:00] true, but I joined a. Human design
subreddit, and they're constantly talking over my head. I'm just so confused. I
kept thinking like, oh, if I just joined this human design subreddit, I'm gonna
pick up little bits of knowledge over, but I don't feel like I have.So I'm curious, after you learn those sort of beginning foundational bits, which ,
like you said, maybe that's all that we need to learn if we're just using it to live
our life. But what's the next simple, easy piece to learn after you've been living
with, , trying to follow your strategy and authority and so forth?
Amy: Mm-hmm. I think, yeah, what you've both mentioned is great. I mean,
even though there may be people who are not expert in human design as a
system, what you mentioned, Nicole, what you've both mentioned is what's
really valuable to me about it in the beginning, which is sometimes there's just
one or two key things like, oh, I have an emotional authority.
Maybe recognize, it's just a good [00:12:00] idea for me to have some patience
and give myself a little time to feel things out. That's such a simple little thing
that 50% of the population can relate to or I'm not here to initiate based on some
big vision that I come up with by myself, and that's okay. Even though that's
something that is generally very validated in our culture.
So some of those just key essential pieces can be so helpful. I think the way that
the foundation courses and the way human design has. Traditionally been taught
can be helpful in just understanding, well, first it's helpful to know type,
strategy, authority. That's really simple. , then the next step is often to be able to
look at the body graph and like you said, Tiana, to be able to see, oh, there are
these nine centers.
And a lot of them correlate with what a lot of us already know about the seven
chakras. So that's often also not that difficult. We get that concept between
what's the difference between defined and undefined, , colored in or not colored
in. And that can be really [00:13:00] helpful then to start to dive into what the
channels are about in general can be helpful.
And, understanding the essential pieces of the six lines of the hexagram. Just
what are the flavors of those six lines, because then you can start to understand
profile, which you two happen to be of the same profile, which is cool , so yeah,
I think being able, some people can kind of. Pick and choose from the buffet
and find a way to synthesize it all.
But I think we've often found, for a lot of people it seems to be helpful, almost
like learning a language. It can be helpful to just have a few basic building
blocks in order, and then you can start to speak the language and understand
conversations people are having about it. And I think personally, sometimes
that's a more efficient way to go about it.Just get a few of those building blocks in place if you wanna understand it that
much. But it might be helpful enough just to know, Hey, I don't need to initiate,
I can just let myself respond to life. That [00:14:00] might be enough , to help
you have a beautiful, wonderful life. And you don't ever need to know another
thing about human design unless you want to, ,
Tianna: , the small piece you said about emotional aau, that was super major
for me actually to realize.
How important it is for me to wait before , 'cause I'm very enthusiastic and often
yeah, , I'm a yes and then the day that I'm supposed to do whatever. Oh, I just,
I'm not feeling it that day . And , learning to really just say maybe most of the
time and then give it a little bit of time because my energy and my emotions do
really shift from day to day.
And so that was huge because, already by the time that, you and human design
came into my life I recognized some of that as far as like not saying yes and
following through with things that don't ping me, but I was still, , being too
[00:15:00] quick to, it's usually saying yes, not the opposite, saying no, and then
later becoming a yes.
It was usually saying yes, and then later it's becoming a no. , so to recognize ,
oh, this is part of my design and I really need to pay attention and align with it
really, really helped me a lot. And I'm surprised you said it was 50% of the
population is emotional authority. Wow. 'cause I also have undefined, what is
it? The, heart. Yeah. It's hard. I always get confused 'cause it's also called ego,
which to me, the ego doesn't seem what we usually think of what is the ego, this
individualized self doesn't seem like heart.
, anyway, I remember reading somewhere that a big part of the population
doesn't have the heart defined. So I just was curious as far as , a lot of the
population being emotional authority, a lot of the population not having the
heart defined. , is that just random or do you think there's a divine [00:16:00]
higher reason why that might be beneficial?
I'm just curious. I.
John: I think it works out in a way mathematically in that if you look at the
number of gates that you have in the center, so you have a fixed number of
gates in each center and the heart slash ego center has four gates that could
potentially be active. , and each of those gates would be activated by forming a
channel to another center.And so if you look at like the number of planets, that can activate a gate, right?
And then you look at the number of gates, there's. , you'd say the opportunities
to activate a center, because what you need is a channel defining that center. So
, a plan on either side of the channel will then turn on that center and the
channel on the other side.
Then it comes out to where you're only gonna have, a certain number of,
possibilities within any given time period. And so , basically the fewer number
of gates in the center, you're gonna see that center is not gonna be activated very
much. Where if you get a center that has, let's say [00:17:00] eight, nine
different gates in there, it's gonna be activated a lot more.
So, I think it works out because of just , , the mechanics of it, the planets and the
activations.
Nicole: For the people who are visual, if we're looking at a chart of chakra
systems, so we would see a dRaing of a human being on a piece of paper with
the chakras. If we're looking at the chart, a astrological chart, we would see
stereotypically a circle with 12 pies representing each month and the different
conjunctions along it.
Is there a chart or some kind of thing that we would see in a human design?
John: Yeah. There are two main parts of the human design knowledge that
came through human design was kind of a downloaded or revealed, , body of
knowledge. In two of the major components were the wheel, which is called the
rave mandala in human design, which does contain the zodiac signs, the the 12
zodiac signs.
But instead of using the signs in human design, they're mapping . A individual
hexagram to a position [00:18:00] within a sign, a degree of a sign, and there's
64 hexagrams around the wheel. And so that sequence and order of the
hexagrams around the wheel and their exact positions in the zodiac was part of
the human design, , kind of download or knowledge that came through.
And then the other piece is what you're referring to, which is called the body
graph. And what's interesting is when the human design knowledge was
received by this person back in 1987, actually , the human part of it was a
smaller part of the overall kind of revelation or download. He also got the
design of plants, of animals, of single cell organisms of groups and
organizations.And so there are these energetic kind of structures or patterns that set up. And
human design , is an aspect of the whole body of knowledge. And , in the
human design system, you're gonna see a chart that looks like a human, roughly,
, a human torso. And in it you've got, , nine different centers.
So part of the information that came through as well [00:19:00] said that in
1781, there was a mutation that happened in our species, and we started coming
into the world as a new form of human that had an upgraded energetic system of
nine centers rather than seven centers, where we had been for, , hundreds of
thousands of years.
And so. The new kind of the body graph as it exists today. And it will evolve I
think the next jump will be 11 centers from what I understand. , but we're at a
nine centered, kind of energetic form and you'll see, , like the root center at the
bottom, the head center at the top, then below the head center you've got the
Ajna and below the root center you've got the sacral and you can kind of fill out
the whole body graph.
And it's a pretty, I would say, close correlation with the traditional seven chakra
center model. But it's been reorganized and upgraded according to human
design.
Nicole: it's a plant animal thing that I wanna Yes. I wanna jump to
Tianna: that next, , but , I'm curious about the evolution from the nine center to
the 11th [00:20:00] center, or even from the seven to the nine, is that like.
Divine down, or is that like, , if we shift as a society or as a human being, , are
we sort of creating that timeline as for when it happens or is that something that
will just happen?
Amy: I think generally the way human design was received by Ra uru, who,
who was the man who brought it through, was he was sort of given, like John
said, not only the design of humans and forms and plants and animals,
Nicole: . The
Amy: universe was created, how the planets formed, , how neutrinos are. Part
of this underlying substrate that we are swimming in. That's,, energy with a
slight bit of matter that's passing through all of these different planetary bodies
and then that then leaves an imprint with us in our forms, in the way we come
into our incarnation here.The general vibe of human design or the general frequency of it, the way it was
[00:21:00] brought through, doesn't necessarily seem to rely a lot on our
participation in this , the attitude of it. And I think it's a great question. It's
something really worth exploring and it's not something I would ever wanna
present in an authoritative way, but RA certainly did.
And his way of bringing it through was sort of like we are recipients of this
program unfolding. We're recipients of an evolution that is unfolding and. From
what I gather from his teaching, I think the way that we can best participate with
it is to see it is just to see it and to accept our place in it.
So I don't know that there was so much of an orientation, at least in the way he
brought it through, that we are driving anything or that we are creating it in
some way. Although many of us may have a part to play that involves a lot of
conscious creation. [00:22:00] But I think the general view is that this is an
evolutionary unfolding that is in process and in some ways is already done.
So maybe that's why he could look at it and say, this is what we came from.
This is where we are now. This is where it's going, and we're all part of this sort
of movie that's unfolding, which doesn't mean that we're powerless. It just
means that, I don't know, that maybe we're as much recipients of it, maybe a
little more so than creators of it.
Would you say that differently, John? You might have a different take?
John: We often have different takes on , the same thing. Love that, just a
different way , of processing it and saying it.
Mm-hmm.
John: I would say it's, in a way both. I think it's coming, top down in a sense.
And then it's also coming bottom up and meaning that I feel like , the unfolding
pattern of evolution , is.
Coming from nature itself, , from a certain cosmic order. And we're all
[00:23:00] participating in that, as Amy is saying. And yet I also believe, and
you were touching on this as well, which is, we have a role to play that humans
have a specific role to play in that, in this evolution. And, we can take that down
to an individual level and get , a sense of what that means by looking at a chart
or a design, like what that role might look like, what are the signpost?But I kind of feel like, , it's kind of goes both ways. There is a pattern and we're
fulfilling the pattern with our experiences, with our ability to create, meaning ,
the amount of consciousness or intention we bring to things. And so it seems
like, yeah, we're kind of doing both in that space.
Tianna: I love your two answers and it's kind of like , the deep existential
question of free will versus destiny , or is it both? So thank you for those
responses.
Nicole: Yeah. Like we're born into this human body and we have the family
genetics of this body, and we have the area of the world that we're born into and
we have the things around us .
And we all get to decide how we're gonna use [00:24:00] these lungs and how
we're gonna use our legs and how we're going to be with this body. Yet it's the
body we came with. So it's the human design that we're born into and what are
we going to do with it And, ideally gather experiences and wisdom with it.
, I would love to circle back to that flora fauna and, so did I hear correctly that
Ra said that even plants and animals have their own human design. Did I hear
that correctly? And my first question is, well, when an animal's born, we can
say the time of that, but when is a plant born? So , does their chart
, is it not an individual chart? It's more of a plant collective chart or individual?
John: I don't think I've run across from anyone who's been able , to run a chart
for a plant yet. Although he did. So basically what Ra gave was, , kind of the
blueprint in a sense. You could see almost like an energetic map where , , , dogs
are probably a good place to start, like dogs and cats because they're considered
to be five centered beings.
[00:25:00] And since we can get a time, if you have, if you're someone sitting
there with a stopwatch when the litter of puppies comes out, and then you get
another question of like, okay, there's six puppies now what? , but yeah, , you
can run a chart for your pet. And I have, and, now interpreting that , is a little bit
more interesting and challenging and maybe a little more elusive than like
looking at a human chart.
But , he gave the design of inanimate objects, of insects, of plants, of animals, ,
reptiles,
Amy: single cell to organisms,John: single cell organisms. , and basically, it's just a map. It's a really big
cosmological map that then gets into specific kind of, categories of life. And , I
would think that if we were able to nail down a time to run a chart for a plant.
You know, that could be interesting, or an insect, but I don't know how that's
done, maybe in a lab somewhere, but, , yeah,
Nicole: that is fascinating. And has he already crossed over Ra? [00:26:00] I
don't remember the time period. Does anyone channel him? Ooh, you know,
Amy: that's a fascinating question.
Nicole: That's what I wanna do as a psychic medium.
I'm like, oh, , I wanna go and ask him questions.
Yeah.
Amy: It's really funny. I've never heard of anyone channeling him. John's
answer was exactly the first thing I thought when you asked. I'm not sure
anybody would want to, he's a really intense guy from what we understand. But
also, if I think of the soul, the spirit of him.
I can't imagine something that he would want less than somebody channeling
him. So I would imagine if he had any say in it. I don't think so. I would call
upon him and he'd be like, Nope. But I don't know. I'm sure there's gotta be
somebody out there who has a sense that they've spoken to him or felt him or
had some sort of potential exchange with him.
His exchange was also fueled by what he called the [00:27:00] voice, a voice
that came to him. And there are, I know there are people who , have claimed
that they've had their own interactions with the voice.
Tianna: That makes me curious as far as when a body of information comes
through through a certain person, , we could look at religion, right?
And like, oh, Christianity and what they all say, different people have really
different interpretations. And then as time has passed, there are splinter . So I'm
just curious as far as is there room for human design to continue to evolve
without, , Ra says this, or Ra says that are there factions of some people who are
evolving it in new ways and then other people that are fundamentalists that are
like, Nope, Ra didn't say that can't be true.I'm curious about that.
John: Yeah, , exactly. This, just as you described, there are the more
fundamentalist factions than there are the people who are wanting to evolve it,
adapt it, update it, and everything in [00:28:00] between. And I think that's just
the way of things. I think that's kind of how it should be.
And, . I feel like human design in its essence is , it's basically, a framework, a
map, as we mentioned earlier. And without us bringing ourselves to it or the
way we interact with it, our relationship with it, I feel like that's what brings it to
life. , it's almost like a sterile thing in and of itself, if you understand, it's a
logical system.
It's a map, it's a framework, it's a lens, but it's very logical and pattern based and
mechanical. But if it just stays like that, it's kind of static. It's kind of dead. , and
I think it's , the human element, the human factor , that we really need to keep in
it. So one of the things that Amy and I will say sometimes is , we actually have
it as a little bit of a slogan on our website that says, keeping the human in
human design.
Tianna: I saw that. I like that. I was like, Ooh, I wanna know more what you
mean by that. Mm-hmm.
John: It's to kind of, experiment with it, , to look at our relationship with it, to
play [00:29:00] with it, to pick it up, to put it down. And I feel like some people
will take it, and I think in an effort to maybe find greater certainty or security in
their life, they'll take it and they'll try to adopt it or perform to it and like, oh, it
says this, so I must become this.
And I think that's a little bit reversed. I'm a little bit more on the side of , let's
say like the primacy of one's immediate or direct experience, like this is what's
going on. And then you can pick up that map, that framework, look through it.
And , what you'll often find is that it will either confirm or validate certain
things, it de pathologizes things about ourselves that we thought, like we were
talking about earlier, oh, this is a problem.
No, it's not really a problem. It's just designed to be used a certain way. , it has a
specific purpose and it works in this case, but it doesn't work in that case. And
so that's where human design really comes to life, is in our lived experience.
And I think if we can work with it that way, then it can be a really valuable and
interesting thing to experiment with or to [00:30:00] explore.Nicole: Mm-hmm. So I really like the idea of using human design to figure out,
become more aware of who we are and to be supportive of. How we are in this
life, what we can do. And it feels like for me that I have a sense, more sense of
peace and understanding about myself. , so that's relationship with ourselves.
I'm curious about how both of y'all have used it in your relationship with each
other as a married couple, and also Amy, you mentioned you had a child. I don't
know if John, you have a child, well, you have a stepchild, and so how as a
parent, if you've used it with that
mm-hmm.
Amy: Yeah, I have found that human design has been an incredible tool for me
personally through in relationship.
So in exactly the same way that we've been mentioning, it can really help us to
de pathologize a lot. And in fact, as a little side note, we were just talking about
how often we work with therapists , who get very excited about human design, I
think, because it can give them a [00:31:00] way to be able to explain certain
patterns that they see in their clients, without having to frame it in a
pathologizing way.
And that is so liberating, it's so empowering for people and something I think
that's so needed in culture right now in particular. So yeah, I think the first thing
it can do is it can help us just to see ourselves clearly and. To reframe
potentially a lot of the things that we've experienced to understand why things
have played out the way they do or why we orient to life the way we do, why
we have certain priorities why there are certain capacities we seem to have in
great strength and certain others not so much.
And I think once we really accept that and we see that and we feel like you said,
a certain kind of peace and validation through that, then we can't help but have
that immediately start to extend in our curiosity about, well, who is this person
I'm living with and who is this child I brought into the world and what
[00:32:00] are they about?
And. I've even seen many times with clients who've had a reading for the very
first time and they're just getting an introduction in a couple hours to their own
design. Who will say, well, what about my partner? What about my child? And
I will sometimes say, well, let me pull up that picture for you real quick.Now that we've gone through yours and we've done this deep dive and all these
parts of you now here, just look at the picture of your daughter's design. And
oftentimes people will say, wow, that's so different or That's so interesting. Or,
oh my gosh, what does that mean? So I think it has the potential of being able to
spark some curiosity.
And I know as a parent it's been such a godsend because it's really helped me to
recognize when I might be imposing something of my own nature onto my
daughter. And it's also helped me to understand what in her is really coming
from her. Mythology that she's here to live out in this lifetime. It doesn't really
have that [00:33:00] much to do with me.
So, , John has two kids as well. And I think it's very helpful. It's very helpful.
It's very relieving. It can bring, I think, a lot of peace even in, it doesn't
necessarily make it any easier. It can still mean like , that thing that frustrates
me or that thing that I just don't resonate with, it's still there.
It's still not necessarily easy to take, but it brings a frame of understanding. I
think that is really helpful in relationship.
Tianna: So we can use it to know ourself, we can use it for our connections and
understanding and our relationships with others. And it seems really popular
now for people to wanna utilize it in the way they do business.
And what are maybe some of the new emerging applications of human design?
Either that I have it. Heard of or , that you imagine in our beautiful new earth,
are there other applications that are either emerging or how we could add ,
human design in new ways?
John: I [00:34:00] think it allows us to have a different view of our place in
nature. In, , kind of along the lines of what Amy was just saying. Our, ,
understanding our nature, understanding our family members nature, our people
in our life, in, , this theme of acceptance that Amy mentioned, I think is really
important.
If we can. Accept and love ourselves and how we are and where we're different
and where we're the same and then extend the same to someone else. I think it
can really help and support relationships and or open up the door to a different
kind of a relationship. And so I think that is a, big one, , these days.
And then the other big piece that a lot of people are working , with human
design is understanding , the cosmic weather, the larger kind of backgroundfrequencies that we're in the global cycles that we're going through. Human
design had a lot to say about how, , time and evolution unfolds here on this
planet.
And so we have transits, we have like major planetary cycles , that play into ,
our own lives and our life story. And then we've got these larger global themes
that we're [00:35:00] all kinda swimming in. And so I think it can expand our
awareness of, , not just our lives here on this earth, but how it relates , to the
larger, to the cosmos.
Amy: If we think about the fact that there is an evolution that's unfolding,
whether or not we have debates about how much agency or effect do we have
with that, or not even putting that aside , there are weather patterns like John's
saying, that are unfolding, that are affecting our collective experience.
And I think one of the most valuable things it can bring at this time in
particular, certainly in the midst of a lot of astrologers who are out there making
all kinds of predictions or bringing in all kinds of awareness about the different
portals we're going through at different times. I've found it really helpful in
being able to see some of these broader collective themes, especially things that
we can see through the outer planet transits or things like John's mentioning
these larger global cycles.
Because with the information age, the way it is now, it seems to me it's so easy
to get very caught [00:36:00] up in. Having reactions and opinions about all the
things that are emerging, whether it's in politics or in ai or , with the
environmental climate or with different cultural or social or trend kind of
movements that happen.
We can get really caught up in getting reactive about that. If you really learn
and start to understand this unfolding of the program and these themes that
seem to be influencing us, it kind of does the same thing, I think, to our view of
society that it can do to our view of ourselves and our view of the people closest
to us.
Then we start to look at these bigger themes of play, and it's possible to be able
to say, oh, of course, that political figure is a prominent figure right now. Mm-
hmm. Of course, this trend is happening right now. It's part of the unfolding of
this particular theme, and every theme has its own light and shadow.
Every theme has its own challenges and benefits, so. I think it can bring a lot
more [00:37:00] objectivity to how we're experiencing what's going on in theworld. And even then, from that objectivity or from that seeing, we can still
then find, well, yes, and here's how I wanna deal with this thing that's going on
in the world.
We can still have our own opinion in our own place with it, but I feel like it can
take overall, whether we're talking about ourselves, a relationship, or what's
going on in the collective, it can really take out a lot of the blame in it. Like,
who's to blame for the way I am? Or who's to blame for what's wrong with you?
Or who's to blame for what's messed up about the world right now, and whose
fault is it? Or, I think it can help us to have more objectivity about that. And
then when we can see things clearly, I think it's easier to find. Okay, given that
this is the lesson that's being handed down to Planet Earth right now.
How do I wanna interact with that? What's appropriate for me in my place with
it?
Nicole: Obviously you give classes on how to use human [00:38:00] design for
yourself, learning it and whatnot. Do you give classes having to do with what's
going on in the world? 'cause I know so many people are asking about that.
John: We aren't teaching a formal class about , the global cycles , and that, but
some people are, there are offerings out there. , there's the big year that
everyone's throwing around in human design and it's 2027. And so there's a
whole thing.
Tianna: I'm glad you brought that up. I'm like, , I have a question in my head.
Can we talk about 20, 27? So go ahead, jump in.
John: , and so, that comes up a lot and a lot of people have a take on it and they
have their interpretation and they're kinda looking at things through that lens.
And so, , we'll touch on it in classes sometimes. And then , I guess more
specifically , it comes up a lot in our individual session, work with people.
So in addition to teaching classes, we meet with people one-on-one and a lot of
people will be coming in, going like, what is happening? Gimme some
perspective. Or can you kinda. Help me make sense of some of this stuff that's
coming up in my life. And for that we often will both reference their [00:39:00]
planetary transit specifically, and then we'll kind of zoom out and look at , the
larger picture through these global cycle lenses.And we'll often explain, at least share our take on it, which I think can help
make some sense of things.
Amy: We did a class recently, or in the last few years, , we've run a class a
couple times. We haven't done it recently, but, , we ran a class called Modern
Love where we were basically talking about this global cycle change that we're
in the midst of and what those themes are likely bringing to all of us and
focusing on the impact that might be having on how we relate to each other and
how we partner.
So, yeah, , we may offer something like that again in the future at some point.
Tianna: Do you have maybe keynotes or a , few. Words description or a
sentence or a couple sentences, like, yeah, , what is this 2027 shift mean? Or ,
what are the energies that are coming in?
Amy: Yeah. There are a lot of things that we could talk about. A few of the key
points of it have a [00:40:00] lot to do with how we're organized as human
beings. The cycle that is passing, that we've been in for about the last 400 years,
there's been a high focus on the channel 40 37 in the human design body graph,
which is the connection.
It's the only connection between the heart center and the emotional center. And
that channel specifically is called the channel of community and the design of a
part seeking a whole, it's a tribal channel, so it's one that's a lot about our
agreements we make with each other, how we fulfill need. It's a lot about ,
loyalty and bargains.
It's also considered to be the channel of marriage, , sort of the classic channel of
the archetype of the male and the female coming together to be part of a whole.
That is the foundation of family. So this channel has been in the transit field as a
dominant influence for the last four. Some years, and, we could see through the
human design lens that this may be part of the reason that so much of [00:41:00]
civilization has developed over the last several hundred years to support the
communal potential of being able to fulfill needs even at the collective and the
institutional level.
So we could see this theme as maybe being responsible for all the things that
have developed at the public level, having public education, having, , bigger
world governments having , institutionalized, , medicine and, welfare and all the
kinds of things where people have come together to develop different kinds of
expertise that could support how we organize ourselves in society.And there's a lot of that that's based on hard work and agreements that we make
to develop all of that. So. We can probably already feel that a lot of these things
have been breaking down. , some of them have gotten really bloated, where the
organizations or the institutions have become so large that they've either
become corrupt or unable to fulfill their original purposes.
[00:42:00] And, we may also be seeing a lot more individuality starting to come
forward where people don't want to, , work for a corporation or work within an
institution. There's a lot more individuality starting to come to the surface in this
new cycle. So we've got, I think. We could talk about it for hours.
There's so many different ways that we're seeing this unfold. But overall, I
would say we're likely moving much more into an era of individual autonomy
and, intimacy through spirit and moving away from more organizational
institutionalized agreements and ways of taking care of each other's needs.
So , it's a very different future. I think , we're stepping into.
Tianna: I'm like, yay, that all resonates with me.
Nicole: Did you say intimacy with spirit or of spirit?
Amy: Intimacy based on spirit. Intimacy through spirit, which is very different
than , the [00:43:00] old cycle, I would say was generally more focused on
intimacy based on need.
you think about what it's like to come together in a relationship because you
need each other for resources and for loyalty, and for making sure everybody
gets fed. That's one aspect of relationship for good and bad. Very different to
come together because there's a resonance of spirit or some sort of communion
of awareness that brings you together in an energy of creativity and
empowerment.
That's a very different frequency, you could say in this new frequency. Well,
that sounds great. We get to be these empowered, creative individuals. One of
the questions that might come into play with that is, well, who's gonna do the
dishes and feed the children? Because that's not a high focus in this new
frequency.
Nobody wants to do the dishes in this new frequency. Our AI robots are gonna
do, what are the AI robots gonna do? All the dishes and the laundry, right.Tianna: So I have a selfish question. , since you asked for our [00:44:00]
information, since we have two amazing, really experienced human design
experts here, , I've just been curious. I was one wanting to know a little bit about
the channels because I have a number of them and I looked at John's bio and he
was like, I have this one defined channel of initiation or something.
And I was like, oh, that's very clear. , but then I was like, oh, what do you do
when you have a, bunch of different ones? I don't know. No one's really told me
if, do I do anything with them or do I need to know anything about them? Or is
there something that like pops out, , when you look at MyChart or you look at
Nicole's chart as far as who we're here to be and embody and express.
John: Yeah, if you look at a human design body graph, you'll see that we've got
these nine different centers that are organized in specific places in the human, ,
form of a human torso. Some of them are gonna be colored in, some of them are
going to be not colored in, so they'll show up white. And the ones that are
colored in are because there's a channel connecting them.
And we refer to that in human design as definition. Wherever there's a
[00:45:00] channel, it means that the life force is fixed into a specific, reliable
capacity theme and capacity that you carry with you through this life. , it is a
energetic capacity. It's a certain way of functioning and a certain aspect of life.
And if you have a lot of definition, if you've got a lot of channels defined, and if
you have a lot of channels defined, you have a lot of centers defined. And in
your case, I can see you've got. Two open centers, seven defined centers. And
that's relatively, , a lot of definition. I mean, you see the whole spectrum from
no centers defined to nine centers defined.
, most people are somewhere in the middle. But , with seven centers defined, it
means that you have a very fixed, energetic capacity. Certain things that you
could think of it as almost being hardwired to operate a certain way, and that
this is the way that it works. The more that you lean into that, embrace that and
accept that for yourself, generally speaking, the better things go.
It's like just kind of being comfortable , in your own body, your own [00:46:00]
skin, and your own capacity. , but the interesting thing about definition is it's not
really designed to be that flexible or to be influenced. So , it's like I'm here and
this is what I am and this is what I got.
And it's a lot. And, , that comes with a lot of capacity. And , if you contrast that
with, , a chart like mine where you've got two defined centers, one channel,seven open centers, everything is conditional, but also, , it's not fixed and it's not
necessarily reliable.
So in those undefined centers and in those undefined areas, , I can do some of
that stuff some of the time, but it's probably not gonna work for me to try to
make that a consistent capacity or a consistent theme in my life. So it shows us
kind of our gifts, our capacities, , what we have to work with, but also what's in
a way, kind of fixed and non-negotiable in ourselves if we have a lot of
definition or wherever we do have definition.
And where you have. Openness , in the head and center and in the heart center
in your case. [00:47:00] That's where , it's more conditional. It depends. , you
don't really have to operate that way, but you can sometime if it's correct for
you. And so that's kind of the way , I look at that question.
, does that make sense the way I'm talking about it?
Tianna: Yeah. I mean, I can definitely see the pluses and minuses of both.
'cause in a way, openness sounds like freedom. You have a lot of fluidity and
flexibility. , but not, maybe it's like you're saying so much consistency and then
having a lot of definition seems stable and consistent, but also kind of maybe
stuck , or I don't wanna say like, I mean, well, , I know I can be stubborn, so I
will say, there can be some, like you said, inflexibility there.
Just kind of embracing whatever you are. And so does it matter to know the
specifics of , the defined gates and channels , or not?
John: I think it can be very , interesting to, go deeper and get into the nuance.
You can get down to the gate level, the channel. You can even look at the lines
that are being activated , in a hexagram [00:48:00] or a gate.
And, , if someone wants to go deep into human design, they're gonna get into
the channels and the gates and that's where a lot of the nuance is. But, , like we
were talking about in the beginning, Amy, and I feel like , most of, , the real
meat of human design is kind of up on the surface.
, there's a lot of depth in just looking at like a center that's defined versus center
that's open. For example, most people, wherever we have an undefined or open
center. At some point in our life, we've probably felt a lack there, like a lack of
capacity or I can't keep up with other people in this area of life or in this
particular thing., and , if that develops or if that kind of gets distorted in a way, then we can
really feel bad and we can compare ourselves to other, and like, I should be able
to have this, but I don't have this, so how do I get this? And it becomes a whole
psychology. Or the flip side of it is , with the definition, like, well, I wish I
wasn't so rigid in this area, or I wish I was more flexible.
But I don't think human design is really about that. I feel like it's just [00:49:00]
showing us the energetics and , there is no bad chart. There's no bad design. It's
just, it's like, well this is what we've got for this go round, so we might as well
try it on and see how it works and learn , to drive in this particular vehicle.
And so I feel like if we can hold it that way. , it's usually more productive and
more healthy in the long run. But yeah, just looking at definition and openness, ,
it's a whole world in there. We can see where we're fixed and where, like you
said, where there's a kind of freedom in there.
Amy: I do think that there's value , in getting to understand the channels as
well, when you're ready for that and a good analysis can simplify that, , and also
potentially translate it in a way that'll really hit home for you. So, another way
we could say it, , to further what John was mentioning is he and I both have
much less defined designs, and the definition that we do have is very specific.
So I would think of each of us almost like. We're a little bit like one trick
ponies, like we have all the flexibility and so [00:50:00] we can try on lots of
different things and we can get pretty influenced by the environments that we're
in. But when it comes to what is the core of what our life force each of us is
here for, it's pretty specific.
It's kind of like, , it's a thing, it's one kind of medicine. But if I look at a chart
like yours, Tianna. You have so many channels and they're spanning all the
different kinds of circuits, and they're involving seven of the nine different
centers. You, to me, have a chart that's a little more like a multipurpose tool.
There are all these different aspects to it, and so that can make you very
capable, I would suspect, in a lot of different ways. It's like you've got a very
logical mind, but you've got a very excitable emotionality that's interested in
having new experiences, but you have this really fixed energy that wants to do
what's most creative and empowering for you your way.
But then you also have the ability to become really masterful at certain skills
that you have a taste for. So you've got all these, each one of those different
[00:51:00] channels kind of brings its own flavor to who you are and makes itquite rich. There's another piece where sometimes when you look at a chart as a
whole, you might be able to see certain channel themes that are more dominant
than others.
So one thing we could say, for example, about your chart Tianna, is there is a
lot in it that's prominent that's about cycles of experience. So, and by that it's a
lot about beginnings, middles, and ends. So you may find that you've seen in
your life over and over again that you go through sort of a cycle with
something.
In the beginning it's very exciting. Then you kind of commit to it and you're all
in for a little while. You explore it, you learn something from it, and then at
some point you can tell, I think I'm done with this. And it likely wouldn't feel
like that's a choice you're making. It would likely almost feel like it's, it's what's
happening.
And then when something comes to an end, it's like, okay, we're done with that.
And then there may be a little bit of a pause, and then there's , the next cycle of
experience. [00:52:00] On the broad level, I would suspect there's something
about your design that
doesn't wanna get too repetitive in the experiences that you're having. It's like if
it starts to become too repetitive, it's almost like you could do the same thing,
but there's gotta be some cycles where there's some new elements that get
involved and we get to do it in a new way. Then we go through it that way for a
little while.
Then when that's done, there'll be another iteration, and so that would probably
be a very dominating theme, I would say, based on your channels.
Tianna: You nailed it, for sure. Yeah. That's amazing that you can see that and
that's what's so interesting about these different systems and how , you can look
at this chart of this person that you don't really know and be able to say deep
insights like that.
It always. Floors me. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nicole: So I'm curious about MyCharts. As you were talking about Tiana's
chart. I'm like, yes, yes, yes. And also got some more insight about you and I
really love that.
Go ahead.Amy: [00:53:00] Well, you have a little bit of that as well. I would say, Nicole,
you have a prominent channel there that is also about cycles of experience. So
that might be something that you can both relate to and something about that I
would say is an overall theme likely for both of you is kind of the theme of
adventure.
I mean, it's part of the human story, but it's especially prominent, I would say
for both of you, which is when you're at the beginning of something, there's
often this sense of. Oh, I'm excited. What could this be? Where's this gonna go?
And you might have a bit of an idea of, I think it's gonna go like this.
Or you might even, like at the beginning of any good fairytale, you've got the
protagonist and they set out on the journey, and they've got a notion about what
they think the prize is that they're after. But then you get into the experience.
And once you get into it, then you start to meet the unexpected.
You start to meet some twists and turns. You start to notice different things
come up that maybe you didn't know you were gonna find. And usually in a
story like that, you [00:54:00] end up being sort of changed by the adventure
itself. And then in the end, it turns out. Maybe you got the prize that you were
after when you started, or maybe actually the journey of it changed your whole
goal and in the end what you got may, even if it was different than what you
thought you wanted at the beginning, you learned something from it and you
grew from it.
The big thing I would say that's a part of that theme for both of you has to do
with growth and maturity and how we're changed by the experiences we have.
And then once we're changed and we grow from that, we take a breath and then
we're ready for the next one. Like what's gonna be the next adventure.
And the other thing that I would mention that you have as well, Nicole, and I
love that you got that piece from Human Design right away about, oh, I don't
have to. I don't have to be an initiating visionary. I can relax and wait for
somebody else to bring up a great notion. And then notice if that light turns
[00:55:00] me on and seems like something I wanna add my energy to, and then
I can be this powerhouse that brings a lot of fuel, brings a lot of clarity and
intuition, brings some authenticity to the process, and a kind of mind that's very
much about efficiency and, bringing in some breakthrough insights and
appreciating diversity and individuality.
So, yeah, are some of the things I would name about yours.Nicole: , it's interesting also, thank you for all this. I know I'm not a visionary
and yet I give, facilitate a lot of classes. And so thankfully my spirit guides will
come in and tell me or suggest what classes to give and then they'll download, ,
the curriculum for the class.
And then once I have that, once they can meet the vision, then I can go forth
and add my own juices and perspective to it and go forth with it. So I feel really
grateful that [00:56:00] the work I do does need some vision, and yet my guides
go ahead and fill in that for me. And also I've often said I'm an 80 percenter and
Tianna, I don't know if you can relate to this.
When I say 80 percenter, I get really excited about something. I dive into
something. There's that journey that you talked about, the adventure. I go in
with awe. I learn what I want to learn and say, I am in a program that is six
months long, but I'm like, I had four months. I feel complete. I've learned what I
wanted to learn.
I grew, whatever. And 80% of the program is complete, but actually I'm at
100% and I'm not gonna listen to other people's what I should be doing. I'm like,
oh no, I'm complete, so I'm gonna move on. And for a long time of my younger
self, in my twenties, it was like, oh, is part of me a failure that I'm not finishing
this stuff?
And then I realized, no, I've actually completed it for myself. And, I don't know
if you have any in that, Tianna,
Tianna: well, this is a really [00:57:00] superficial, , reference of that, but for
some reason you made me think of all these TV series , like Walking Dead or
something.
Just as an example, I'll be really in for like the first two seasons and then
everybody's watching, it's going on and after that I'm just done. I can't tell you
how many big name series are like that and everybody's still going on. I was
like, yeah, about two seasons is usually it for me.
, I've got everything I can. And then it just seems like repetitive after that. So
just as a silly, but yeah, you're talking a much deeper
Nicole: expression of that. Well, I'm very similar. Yeah. I'm similar. It's very
rare that I finish something because I feel like it's a freaking waste of my time.That's where I go. It is a waste of my time. I could be out hanging out with
people or doing, so I really enjoy the first couple of seasons and I'm like, Nope,
I'm complete. And then oh, and I'm curious about the defined and undefined.
did you say there were nine channels? Is it Channel
John: nine Centers?
Nicole: Centers. Thank you. , what did I have
John: you? When I [00:58:00] look at your design, you have a defined ANA
center, which is the second center, , below the head. , it's usually green when it's
colored in. So, right up here, third eye, and then you've got a defined throat. So
the ANA connected to the throat. And then below that you have below the
throat is the G center, which is a center that shows up in the nine centered form.
, and it looks like a yellow diamond in the middle of the chart. And, it's
connected to your sacral center, which is right below that, which you both share
as generators. And then you also have a defined spleen, which if we're looking
at a body graph, it's gonna be on the left. It'll be a brown triangle if it's defined.
And so you've got these five defined centers, the Ajna throat, G center, sacral
spleen, and your four open centers are the head, heart, solar, plexus, and root.
Nicole: I think I'm gonna want to get a session with y'all to figure out what all
of that means, because now I'm super curious.
Tianna: I have a question about Nicole's chart because she was talking about
her spirit [00:59:00] guides, drop in information , and then you said she had a
defined Ajna and a open head.
And I was wondering , people that are professional psychic mediums or people
that are super intuitive, is that usually coming from a definition or an openness?
Is that openness because the information is coming from information spirit
guide,
does it, have you noticed if there's kind of a correlation , for people who are
psychic or intuitive, whether that comes from openness or definition?
Amy: Well, one thing I would wanna ask in your case Nicole, is how long have
you been. Doing that work? Or how long have you been working with guides ,
and bringing things in?, the first
Nicole: time I remember seeing a spirit I was three.
Mm-hmm.
Nicole: And the first time I remember talking with a spirit and having a very
meaningful, life changing conversation. I was eight, so I was second. But my
mom says I talked with whispers before then. That's just the first time I
remember.
Amy: Hmm. The thing that strikes me about your chart, I'm not sure that I have
seen a definitive pattern about who [01:00:00] can receive guidance in that way.
I would suspect we're all capable of it, . On some level. But the thing that strikes
me looking at your chart is your personality sun, which is in the 13th gate,
which is known as the Gate of the Listener, and it's also known as the gate of
the Fellowship of Man. And you have it in the sixth line.
And whenever anything's in the sixth line, it's at the top of the hexagram. You
both have a six two profile. So that sixth line is a really prominent feature of
both of your designs. But you've got that particular gate in the sixth line, which
to me is the sixth line, is sort of when we've really gone beyond the collective
meaning of that whole theme and it becomes truly our own.
So I bet you've been listening all your life and that theme is a huge part of your
purpose, what you're here for. 'cause it's the anchor of your, it's where your
personality sun is. And because it's in the sixth line, I think there's something
very transpersonal about it. Which means you're listening [01:01:00] beyond the
personal.
It probably also means that when you're even talking to another human being,
you're listening beyond just the words that they're saying. You're listening for
frequency, you're listening for meaning. You're listening for their memories,
their stories, where they're coming from. You're listening for their humanity.
And so that would be my intuitive hit about where that's coming from for you
personally, is you've got a whole life purpose that's anchored in listening. And
then who and what are you listening to? And it may also mean that it's a whole
lifelong exploration of what's worth listening to.
Tianna: I love how you described that.That was beautiful. That was poetry to my ears. Well, gosh, I would love to just
talk to you for like five more hours, but obviously we all have things in our
lives. , , I wanna hear about , what you're up to and tell people how they can
reach you.
But also is there anything about human design , that you really wanna set people
straight with?
John: Well, can I bring one other thing in about your charts before we go to
that? Is that okay? Absolutely. Sure. Because Amy touched on it a moment ago,
but you're both at [01:02:00] a very significant, part of your life timing in terms
of the overall life story.
And you both share what's called a six two profile. And, , when we talk about
profile, it's like, we talked earlier about , the big concepts or the big themes that
we can easily look at and relate to in our chart, like in astrology, we have the,
the sun, the moon, the ascendant.
And so profile is one of those. And profile is talking about , the role, the
character that we're here to play as we go through life. , it's part of our life story.
It's part of our life purpose and a six two profile. , there are different keynotes
for each profile. One of the main keynotes for the six two is the role model
hermit.
And so the role model's the sixth line, that's on the personality side, it's out
front, so it's on the black side of the activations and it's unique in the hexagram
because it goes through a very distinct three-phase life process where the first
third of the life from birth to the Saturn return, the sixth [01:03:00] line is not
fully a six yet.
, it's in its lower octave, , or lower harmonic, which is the third line. So it's
having a third line experience. And the third line experience is a lot about trial
and error learning, being in the world, seeing how things work figuring out, just
life. And, along with that comes, kind of ups and downs.
Certain things that go well, certain things that don't, but we learn through that
whole process. And then something really interesting happens at the Saturn
return where that six line kicks in. And when it kicks in, it's said to take you up ,
to the roof, which is the top of the hexagram. And like Amy was saying, the six
line has a view that goes beyond it.It's looking out and it's. In a way, kind of up and above things. And from that
somewhat detached, , outside perspective, it sees so much. And so this second
phase of life that starts at the Saturn return runs from roughly 29 to 49. that's
called the on the roof phase. In relative to the first third of the life.
There's a stepping [01:04:00] back. It's like, okay, , let me just stop with all of
this stuff, or let me shift gears , and maybe, back up a little bit and shift my
perspective. See what's going on, see how the world works. And usually
questions about like, who am I? What's my purpose? Why am I here, come up
during that time period.
And it's a 20 year period, which is a lot of observation. , it's a lot of processing.
Sometimes it can even involve a healing process that I need to take a break,
recuperate, or recover from that first 30 years. And it's a process to get on the
roof, as they say. But once you're on the roof, it's kind of comfortable.
, you're outside of things. You're not too far in the mix. It's a little bit safer when
you're up on the roof, but you're not designed to stay there forever. And so what
happens to the sixth line at around 49 50? And it even happens a little bit before
it starts this transition period where
you start coming off of the roof and getting back into the world, but this time
you're getting back into the world as yourself, as someone who [01:05:00]
embodies, your design, your life, what you're about, whatever things that you've
been looking at studying or interested in. And if you're a six two, the two part of
it is gonna bring out your natural gifts.
It's gonna bring out your natural calling. And 'cause the two is the natural and
it's designed to be called , out in the world. So often what will happen when you
hit your, , late forties, early fifties, is you start this transition process to take the
experiences that you had in the first third of your life and all the learning and
whatever went down there.
And then all of the observation and the work that you did on yourself and the
awareness that you gained in that second phase. And you integrate it, you
synthesize it, and then you reemerge back in the world according to whatever
calls you back into the world off the roof. It's almost like life starts at 50.
It's like, okay, everything that's been happening up till now has been leading up
to this point, and now I have a chance to come back in as myself and put it all
together in a way that feels a lot [01:06:00] more in alignment and a lot morerepresentative who you are. And that role model frequency is something that
benefits the rest of us.
, we get to look and say, oh my gosh, there's an individual, there's , a person
who's, , living their life, living their design, who've, , answered their call and it's
something that we need in the world. We need six lines as points of reference.
And so I just find it interesting that you both are just on the other side roughly ,
and it's the Chiron return, which, , astrologically signals that transition point.
So you get to the other side of the Chiron return, and then the question is like,
alright, where am I now? Who am I? And it's always in reference of where
you've been, what you've learned in your awareness, but it's time to get back
into the game and put it all together. Does that resonate with either of you?
Do you relate to that
Tianna: totally timeline? Yeah. 100 for sure. Very much relates Nicole.
Nicole: Absolutely. And I've often said my life began at age 45 and that at age
50 was 2020, [01:07:00] that my profession kicked in. This profession, I used to
be a school teacher , but yes. This, yeah.
Tianna: For me, yeah. Even though I, , been doing this work for a while, there's
a definite , shift of putting it out.
Before it was just kinda like, oh, me, under the radar working with my client.
Yep. And even, , thinking of this podcast and then writing a book and then
creating these different groups and stuff that was like me. Putting it out there
more. And also in my business, when I first started with my business, , from
what I remember learning in business school when I thought I wanted to , be
this corporate woman is like, oh, your business is not about you.
It's about who you serve. And so I didn't put myself in my business and then
especially in the days, like you're saying, , we see the shift in the collective ,
with social media and everybody having their voice to uniquely express. , and
actually now, people want to know who you are before they decide if they're
gonna do business with you.
It's [01:08:00] very much about who you are, not just what you offer, but people
wanna resonate with you. And so there was this, like uncomfortable shift for me
to put more of myself into my business and more of myself, , out there in the
public, or, , even just when we started this podcast in 2019, me and Tim at thetime, there was a freakout moment of like, oh my gosh, I just told anybody that
I talked to spirit beings.
Any random person could hear that and , what are they gonna think of me? You
know, and getting really comfortable. with all of that. And then like learning
from human design. I guess I have , something with the throat center def. Like I
have a lot of individualized stuff where I guess I'm supposed to be my own
individual.
Tianna: And so just embracing that and again, just still it's like baby steps, but
getting more and more comfortable with putting that out there and not feeling
like it's weird or unsafe or selfish to somehow be [01:09:00] the individual
putting that out in the world. So yeah, that really, really relates. Thank you for
sharing that.
John: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It sounds like the six two process and
that the second line, which is on , the design or the red side in both of your
charts, , which is called , the hermit or the natural. It's gotta be the right call.
And , you've gotta feel like you can come out as yourself , and be comfortable
being yourself.
And otherwise, the hermit part of it, , the second line, tends to be kind of closed
and there's a barrier. Like, I don't wanna be exposed, I don't wanna put myself
out there. That's insane. You know? And so it takes time to get to the point and
it's gotta be the right thing and the right call.
And it's gotta be something that really, I think comes from deep inside you , to
do that. , and then, yeah, then . The whole life purpose, flowers and opens up,
and then you get to really see what this whole journey is about in that third
phase of life. , yeah.
Tianna: And is it normal too that I don't have it right now, but I always
subscribed to some human design app and I had put a number of my friends that
shared, , how [01:10:00] many people do, you know, their time and place of
birth, right?
Like, you might know their date of birth. But anyway, I had a number of
friends, or somebody I had dated or whatever, and we shared that information
and I was surprised how many six, two profiles there were in my life. Is that
normal? , I'm curious to hear , what you guys are, what your profiles are.And do profiles tend to , come together in groups? Or is that, just random.
Maybe that's just me.
Amy: Yeah, I can say that. There are a few different kinds of patterns that we
can see with profiles. So sometimes there's a resonance where we're drawn to
profiles that are like our own, , Tiana for you in particular, you've got both a six
two in your profile, but you've got six lines in your nodes on both sides.
So the nodes will tend to show us, , who we're designed to have around us. Oh,
so I would expect that you would have a lot of six lines around you, not just
because you're six two, but especially because you have the sixth line in your
nodes and, for you as well , Nicole, you've got the sixth and the fifth line in your
nodes, so it would make sense for both of [01:11:00] you that you'd be
interested in and you'd gravitate toward having other six lines around you.
It also tends to be something where you would both probably have been
studying role models all your life. Just noticing who walks their talk, who seems
to be modeling what they say they're doing with integrity and in a healthy way,
and who's being a hypocrite and who's not modeling something that I would
trust.
There's a lot in the sixth line that's about trust. And so it's a journey of how do
we learn to trust ourselves and also who's out there modeling something that's
trustworthy. So you both have that with your notes. And what are you guys, I
have a five one profile and John has a two four,
John: which are opposite profiles.
And when you look at it, harmonically in the hexagram. Yeah.
Tianna: And do opposites attract in human design?
John: You tend to see that a lot. Like, I'm a [01:12:00] two four, but I also have
a fifth line in my nodes and so I have, five ones all around me. And Amy's got
two fours all around her. And, so there's this, , when you look at harmonic
profiles, it's two sides of the same coin.
It's like they're opposites, but they're sharing themes and , they're different ends
of basically the same spectrum. And so there's an opposites attract type of
dynamic that sets up there. Or the other thing that you'll see is you'll see six
twos with six twos or five ones with five ones and two-fours with two-fours,because then there's a resonance that's a familiarity and it's just, oh, well we
both kind of go through life in a similar way and we can relate on that.
Tianna: So you guys make a great team.
Amy: We do in a lot of ways. We have a lot of, two sides of the same coin.
Features in our designs together. So we've got the masculine feminine, we've
got, two sides of the projection field. we've got a lot of things like that. So I like
that in terms of teaching because I think it's helpful for people not to [01:13:00]
get fixated on one person's filter.
So I appreciate when John has a different view than I do, or he brings a different
flavor to it than I do because then I don't have to worry as much about people
modeling themselves after me. 'cause I wouldn't want that. So it makes it a lot
safer that way.
Tianna: Tell us about what you teach. You have different
Amy: types of courses
we do, we teach all of the foundation courses in human design, which are , the
sort of basic 1, 2, 3 levels of understanding the body graph. And we do some
more advanced trainings as well, specialty trainings for people who wanna
learn, other aspects of design. So, we offer all of those through the Human
design collective, which is our joint venture.
And, we both work with people privately as well, and we really love the people
who gravitate toward us.
Tianna: Yeah, , so the people that take the classes, some of them are taking it
for their own self knowledge, and then some of them, I'm [01:14:00] assume,
are taking it because, like you said, maybe they're like a psychotherapist or
they're another type of practitioner, or some of them are taking it because they
want to.
Do what you do or all of the
Amy: above. I think the foundation courses are great for anyone. I think they're
great just for basic understanding of core human patterns. So, we do have a
number of people who will take those for their own understanding of
themselves and the people close to them, and they also fulfill the basic
requirements for anybody who wants to go into any kind of analyst certification.So it serves both purposes and they do tend to be experiences that offer a lot of
information, but also invite a lot of self-reflection.
Nicole: Wonderful. So you give individual sessions and do you do couple
sessions and do you work with children?
Amy: We both offer a couple sessions. We both will work with parents.
Certainly if there are parents who wanna understand their children, which we
would [01:15:00] highly recommend. If you feel open to that or inclined toward
that, I think it can take a lot of the confusion out of parenting, especially if
there's something you really trying to get your child to do that is not working.
It can really help to , have some creative ways to maybe get out of any kind of
power struggles that might be going on or self recrimination that might be going
on as a parent. So yes, definitely sessions for parents looking at children. In
terms of children receiving the information, I think we've both worked a fair
amount with teenagers and young adults.
I'm not sure how much use it would be for. Probably from, I don't know, we've
seen some extraordinary, , 13 year olds for example, who could really take it in.
But it kind of depends on the interest of the child. It's not something I would
wanna give to a child that wasn't truly interested in it.
Tianna: Beautiful. Well, , thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge
and wisdom. It's amazing. And, , I know there's several different websites that
you have. Can you share , your Human [01:16:00] Design collective website
and your individual websites as well?
Mm-hmm.
Tianna: Yes. So
Amy: Our joint site is human design collective.com. Also, for our courses, we
have a site that's courses dot human design collective.com, and we have all our
workshops there , and our class offerings there. And then my personal site is
hollow human design.com. That's HOLO human design.com.
John: And my personal site is metamorphic systems.com.Tianna: Awesome. Thank you so much. I feel like I'm gonna have to have you
guys on again because there's just so many more layers to go through , yeah.
Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having such a
Nicole: pleasure. Yeah. Getting to
Tianna: know you and hearing about human design.
John: Yeah, thank you. We'd love to come back when the time's, right? Yeah.
Tianna: Oh yeah. All in divine timing hopefully not five and a half years from
now. Definitely before, right? Before 2027. . . I think we live in really
incredible times, so who knows? [01:17:00] I'm really excited actually to see , I
didn't stop recording, but this is like after the recording.
Yeah. , but I really am excited to see what's gonna happen with human design,
just because it seems like it's been mushrooming and it feels like. It's the time
for it, , so. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Amy: Yeah, I think there's a lot shifting. It was a great question that you had
asked about, what should people know?
, about human design and something that's beautiful about both your profiles?
The way John was talking about it is that we're really leaving an era of authority
figures. So the era of trusting outer authorities is really fading away. And it's an
interesting time because some of us might feel really empowered by that.
Like, oh, great, I get to live in, , my own world, my own rules, my own way.
But it also requires a lot of self-responsibility and kind of growing up. So one
thing I would say to anybody using any system now, whether it's human design
or astrology or any other modality is. Do not outsource your authority
[01:18:00] to any person or any teaching.
You really are the authority of your own life, and that comes with its own
privileges and responsibilities. , so I wouldn't want anybody to use human
design in a dogmatic way. Don't treat it like a religion. Don't make it a cult.
Don't treat anybody like a guru. It's really not the time for that.
It's not going well, , in most cases. SoTianna: that's why I didn't stop recording because it's a great clip that you, that
I'm definitely gonna include that, because again, that just shows why human
design, it's becoming so popular right now because it's all teaching you how to
find your own inner authority.
So yeah. That's incredible. And how exciting. Not
Amy: everyone holds it that way though, which is what's problematic. Mm-
hmm. Some people get really lost and like Ra said this, and human design says
this, and I can't do this, and I have to do that. And it's like, you don't have to do
anything
you're a sovereign being. You do whatever you want, you know? , if it's useful,
use it. If it's not, forget it. You know?
Tianna: Yeah. That's what I really liked about [01:19:00] human design. , I'm
on the human design sub Reddit, and people will come on and , , I'm sure you've
had this experience.
A lot of people. are angry. I think I even felt a little bit like this. When you first
learn, you're like, no, I don't wanna be that. Whatever it is, right? Like, wait, I
am supposed to live this way but other people, who are on there that have more
experience with human design are generally just saying , just like what you're
saying.
, well try it out and see and if it works for you, great. If not, you know, and I
like that perspective 'cause it's like you said, non-dogmatic, , for the most part.
But like you're saying, , I think in anything, there's always gonna be some kind
of fundamentalist, people that are over controlling and rigid about it.
Yes.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Before we get off, I have one romantic question . I have this
image of y'all's eyes meeting across the room at a human design conference or
retreat
Amy: are you a psychic? Do you give readings? Do you We need to have an
exchange.[01:20:00]
John: Well , actually, it's pretty, pretty close. , yeah, I think it's on point. , we
did meet in a human design class. So we were both in professional training,
Amy and I, yeah, we were in what's called PTL one, which is the first level ofthe professional human design training to become an analyst, read charts and all
that sort of thing.
And, , that's where we met. We were two of the only projectors, which is our
energetic type work type. And , I have to admit that Amy did catch my eye and
my ear because, well, to give a little bit more detail, I had joined the class late
and I was catching up on videos before I joined it live.
She was already in the class. , and early on when I was watching the video
recordings of the classes and catching up, I'm just like, who is this person? I like
the way she talks. I like the way she thinks. She seems like she's way ahead of
everyone else in the class. , and I was newer to human design.
I didn't know how long she had been in it. I didn't know anything about her. But
, I was very interested and initially it was, I just [01:21:00] want to know how
she's got this and where she's coming from and how she's picked this up so fast
because I was struggling to put it all together. And it seemed like she was a little
bit further down the road.
And then at some point , the teacher had been pairing us all up into study groups
or putting with study partners , in the course. And, he put us together.
Amy: No, he didn't put us together. , we had been getting paired up with all
these different people and I had the same feeling about him and I contacted the
teacher and I was like, I'm done with all these people.
You're pairing me up with, I wanna be with that guy. I wanna be with that
connector guy. I mean, you need to pair me up with him next time. 'cause I'm,
this is not working for me, these other people I'm talking to. So then he put us
together. Yeah. Yeah.
Tianna: I love,
Amy: yeah.
Tianna: I love that. That's so,
Amy: so, so sweet. I'm glad. Yeah, exactly. So it
John: was like that. Yeah, itAmy: was like that. Mm-hmm. What kind of
Nicole: readings do you do, Nicole? , so people come to me for any support or
guidance they want in their life, but I have my [01:22:00] specialties and one is
that I connect with people's spirit guides or any other beings that come in.
So it might be loved ones who've crossed over. It might be deities, helpers,
angels, whomever. Also, for the last 25 years, I've been doing entity clearings,
attachment clearings. I also do medical intuition and I don't do this very often,
but occasionally I'll help find missing children or work with unsolved murder
cases.
And my number one clients are therapists I have a lot of therapists coming, just
processing, like, can we get even deeper into that family, line of clearing things
out, having deeper understanding of what's going on or other lifetimes . I just
wanna chime in
Tianna: I just say that Nicole's an excellent psychic and she's the only one I've
been to for years. . Yeah.
Nicole: And I just genuinely love connecting with people and so what happens
a lot now is. . Say, if you and I are working together, your spirit guides will be
talking.
[01:23:00] I'm sharing the information, what they're saying. But often the spirit
guide will also be , having a side conversation with me and teaching me
something about my life or teaching something about the world in general. And
then I'll often see, another lifetime of the person I'm working with or family
line.
And so I have multiple, maybe having three to five different experiences
simultaneously. That's new. So I can tell like part of my own evolution. It's
typical for me to have two or three conversations going, but to have three to
five, that is a new expansion. But yeah, just the expansion in general of people's
abilities and to be multidimensional. It's really exciting.
Amy: so cool. I would love
Nicole: to connect with you. Definitely
Amy: wanna get a session with you. Awesome. Let's do it. You, I want a
session too.Excellent.
Tianna: Yay. Okay. Thank you guys so much. . Thanks so much. Cool. Thank
you. It was great fun. Great to talk to. [01:24:00] Take care. Bye. Thanks. Bye
bye. Yay.